Y DEVELOP wrote:
Here we go with that 'unique' bullshit againWhen was the last time you left NE and for how long?
What do you mean? What's your point? Try a little clarity, would you please, Dear?
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Gang of One |
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Y DEVELOP wrote: What do you mean? What's your point? Try a little clarity, would you please, Dear?
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o Realist o |
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Damon wrote: Your recollection is absolutely correct. |
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Damon |
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The plan is here:
http://www.gloucester-ma.gov/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=21&MMN_position=41:41 It is huge and very detailed. Much has been implemented; some has been voted down by later officials; some has been unfunded of course. The area around the train depot for example has been pretty much cleaned up and housing over retail downtown has been encouraged. Also some of the recommended zoning changes have been implemented. However some issues have been frustrating, such as hindering downtown residential use which would encourage people to walk or use public transportation by insisting that parking places be available. Damon |
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Y DEVELOP |
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Forgive my ignorance. Can you tell me about some of the things that came out of plan 2000 that got done?Damon and Realist are right on. I did not have the opportunity to be a part of it but I currently have a copy within inches. It's the Community Development Plan 2001. It was the culmination of hours of public input and energy and everything that came forth was a spit in the face. If you read it you may understand my position. |
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NightStalker |
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aren't TIF's meant for a NEW business/commercial and not a re do of an existing one?????
aren't they supposed to be an INCENTIVE to build/develop new businesses that will expand the tax base???
Born to Golf......Forced to work (for now anyway)
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o Realist o |
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"Tax Increment Financing, or TIF, is a tool which has been used for redevelopment and community improvement projects throughout the
United States for more than half a century. With federal and state sources for redevelopment generally less available, TIF has become an often-used financing
mechanism for municipalities. TIF is designed to channel funding toward improvements in distressed or underdeveloped areas where development would not
otherwise occur.
Largely because it promises something for nothing-an economic stimulus in exchange for tax revenue that otherwise would not materialize-this tool is becoming increasingly popular across the country. Originally used to help revive blighted or depressed areas, TIFs now appear in affluent neighborhoods, subsidizing high-end housing developments, big-box retailers, and shopping malls." (Various Websites) My Critique: BUT, if you own a mom-and-pop store that sells fishing rods, for example, you're still paying all your taxes, and the city is giving tax breaks to Park that could put you out of business. The rest of us pay taxes for normal services like public safety, building inspections, and street maintenance, and those services come out of the city's general fund. And as the cost of services goes up, and the money from the general fund is given to this business through a TIF, the tax burden gets shifted to the regular slobs who don't have the same political clout. It's a crummy way to treat your taxpaying citizens, IMO. |
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Gang of One |
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As I understand it - a TIF isn't taking money from the general fund already there....it's more a 'discount' for a limited time on taxes that
will be paid from a newly created 'business' once it's up and running - yes? No?
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t |
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Yes, but all of the other businesses and residences have to pay the full freight, so in essence, they are subsidizing Park[or technically park's tenants,
or really, Park's future customer's tenants]
so if this project were paying full freight, the rest of us would be paying less, or more likely getting more services/graft/shiny things than if they get the TIF |
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DM3194 |
Plan 2000 and Gloucester Crossing | ||
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Damon wrote:
............................. Damon is absolutely correct, the Plan did not recommend Gloucester Crossing, but how could it? No such Proposal existed. The plan also did not recommend the building of nuclear waste dumps, military bases, casinos or whore houses. It did, in fact, encourage new business. I think we need to be careful about how we phrase things. There was absolutely nothing in the Plan that excluded a project like Gloucester Crossing. Some people are promoting the idea that Sam Park's project violates the Plan. False. The Plan, if anything, encouraged well planned business opportunities. The Crossing certainly
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captjoe06 |
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As I understand it, is it is a MORE grant which comes from the state. The tax relief on that portion of his total tax bill wouldn't be coming from the
City.
Also, part of the conditions of the permits is that Gloucester Crossing plow and maintain, for 15 years, the public road they are building into the shopping center. Their drainage system will remain their responsibility forever. After 15 years, the city does take over responsibility for the roads, but it will be required to be in excellent/like new condition. -- Also Gloucester Crossing will be purchasing a new ambulance/paramedic vehicle (couple of hundred $$ for that) and is committed to their funding commitments for the school grounds improvements even if they aren't done at the Fuller School (about $180k). But I guess that doesn't count for anything either. |
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Gang of One |
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Yes, Capt. - all true. But we mustn't let actual facts and figures get in the way of the naysayers' straw-grasping!
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o Realist o |
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Joey - of course the perks count. Glad you brought them up - not certain folks are aware of the perks, or perhaps don't remember the perks, from past, long
ago dicussions.
Last Edited By: o Realist o
05/17/08 12:35 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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Econ |
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OK Gang and Capt Joe - I've gotten a bunch of e-mails telling about what is being said here, so I decided to come on over and throw in a little
information. First, I work for developers all the time and have no problem with sensible development - just development that will be detrimental to the City.
For instance, Joe, you trumpet 200 jobs that will be created by Gloucester Crossing. Well, what about the jobs, and stores and businesses that will be LOST
from Main Street and other areas of Gloucester when this place opens? The net won't be 200 jobs will it? And the lost tax revenue from business downtown
will certainly count against any revenue that might be generated by Gloucester Crossing, right? How about the lost tourism revenue when people stop coming
during the summer? Tourists don't come here to see a "gee whiz modern mall" but a quaint, active Main Street. These are called second, third and
fourth order effects of an economic proposal or plan. Did you hear any of that during Greg C.'s presentation to the council? No, because he never thought
of it because he has never done this type of economic evaluation before.
Now, just so we will all know what we're talking about and to kill a few myths that have grown on this site, here is some information for consideration. A little long - sorry - but we should all know what we are talking about. What is a DIF? In July of 2004, the final rules and regulations were approved implementing Massachusetts General Law Chapter 40Q, commonly known as District Improvement Financing (DIF). District Improvement Financing is: •A Public financing alternative available to all cities and towns in the Commonwealth •Used to fund public works, infrastructure and development projects by allocating future, incremental tax revenues collected from a predefined district to pay project costs •Is utilized so that Municipal investment stimulates private investment which, in turn, increases the taxable value of property and generates the incremental taxes •It is intended to forward public purpose while assisting private partners in accomplishing their goals What does District Improvement Financing (DIF) do? A DIF enables municipalities to pay for the public works and infrastructure necessary to attract growth by pledging the future incremental tax revenue resulting from growth within a designated area to service bond financing obligations. Through a public process, a municipality defines a development district (in this case, only the confines of Gloucester Crossing!) and documents a development program describing, among other things, how DIF will encourage increased commercial, industrial, and/or residential activity within the district. The municipality must also detail the public improvements (the development plan), financing plans, and community benefits. The municipality must have private development partners and the certainty that the project(s) will generate new growth and new revenue. This is not a "build it and they will come" program. In order to go forward, the State's Economic Assistance Coordinating Council (EACC), operating under the aegis of the Massachusetts Office of Business Development, must review and approve the municipality's development districts and development plans. So, the municipality (Gloucester) initiates the DIF to provide support to the Developer - and Sam Park has requested a DIF from the first public meeting to the last presentations before the City for his permits. So much for Sam not qualifying for a DIF, no matter what grants he may be going after. Now, here is where the money comes from. The town undertakes a baseline valuation of properties in the redevelopment area and then freezes taxes at that level ($10,000 according to Capt. Joe). A bond (a loan initiated by the City) is issued to pay for land acquisition, site preparation, or public improvements, depending on the needs of the proposed development project as outlined in the development plan (in this case around $3M is what Sam requires to build roads and sewers - all of which would not be necessary if the Gloucester Crossing project wasn't happening.). Subsequently, commercial or industrial projects, or even housing projects are developed and financed privately. After the property is improved, a new valuation is conducted and tax receipts in excess of the original valuation are "captured" and escrowed to pay for the public improvement costs (so the difference between the $10,000 in the current tax revenue and the new assessed amount). The tax increment is the property tax paid upon the "captured assessed value" of the property in the development district, i.e., the amount by which the current improved value of the development district exceeds the original assessed value of the district ($300K minus the current $10K at most according to Sam Park's estimates and Greg C.'s presentation to the City Council). The property will not yield $648K in tax revenues to the City (real estate, hotel, etc.). The $648K Capt. Joe talks about is from Greg C.'s revenue report and included no City costs for services against projected fees and WAY overestimated the hotel tax revenue. A municipality can choose to pledge all or a portion of the tax increment (get that? all or a portion of the increased tax revenue) towards the repayment of the bonds (i.e., loans) issued from the City. If the City borrows $3M to finance the infrastructure, we won't see revenue from Gloucester Crossing for 15 years while we pay off the loan as they will have to use the new tax revenue in excess of the current tax revenue ($10K) to pay for the bond/loan. How is that for "math" Capt. Joe? You just have to start with the correct figures. |
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DM3194 |
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A great line by Gang of One:
"....we mustn't let actual facts and figures get in the way of the naysayers' straw-grasping!" ...................................... As one very well-to-do East Gloucester" anti-Sam Park "Task Force" devotee told me...all the perks and new tax revenue don't matter....it's a "matter of principle." "Even if we only give a one dollar tax break, and get a million dollars back...it is still WRONG!," she says. And this person has lived in Gloucester for a grand total of three years, and couldn't find the Fuller School with a map. The Task Force elites never cease to amaze me with their economic wisdom. |
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DM3194 |
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Econ Said:
"If the City borrows $3M to finance the infrastructure, we won't see revenue from Gloucester Crossing for 15 years while we pay off the loan as they will have to use the new tax revenue in excess of the current tax revenue ($10K) to pay for the bond/loan." ...................... This is a blatantly false statement. Anybody with even a marginal knowledge of the project (whether for or against it) will recognize this as nonsense. As Gang of One might put it...."a naysayers grasping for straws." Voodoo Economics....to borrow a phrase from a bygone era. Capt. Joes math is valid. If it is off at all, it is a bit conservative. Understating our likely tax benefits a bit. |
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Thong Extractor |
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If I hear one more fucking time that this will cause loss of jobs on Main St my head will explode. What fucking JOBS???? IS CVS planning on closing or is Sam
Prks going to close down Jalepenos, The Franklin, or Passports or the Village Silversmith. Have you fucking morons actually walked down Main St. lately, 90%
are niche businesses that Sam Park has no interest in competing with. The rest are crap stores that last 1-3 years and go under and provide minimal jobs.
Maybe people want a place to go to shop for several things at once without being harrassed by Gus Foote's family watching the meters.
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Gang of One |
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Thong said it for me. People come to Gloucester to see a 'quaint, active main street'?? That's fucking hilarious! What a tool!
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tyu12 |
gloucester crossing | ||
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Are there going to be any other stores besides the ones mentioned on another thread tj maxx and staples. If these are the only stores to go in there I
don't see how it will effect the downtown stores
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Econ |
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Thong Extractor wrote: Well, let's see - CVS added people when Ames closed - do you think that maybe there is a chance some of those shoppers might go away now and shop at Gloucester Crossing? What about the chance that CVS might not need two stores in town anymore? Think that might cost some jobs? Or when the restaurants go in at GC, do you think it might effect the dining revenues for Jalepenos or the others? What about the people who own the stores and get their revenue from their businesses? Certainly they provide tax income to the City. Do they have a right to worry that a bunch of people worried about being able to buy cheap underwear at 3pm on a Tuesday may be inclined to shop for their other goods while they happen to be at the shopping center? The 22 small stores going into Gloucester Crossing are MEANT for stores JUST LIKE THE ONES ON MAIN STREET. If I were a store owner on Main Street, I would move there as a business matter if I could because the foot traffic will be greater and I would have a better profit margin. But that only moves a business and doesn't add one to the tax base. Before you start name calling you should at least take some courses in economics. |
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Gang of One |
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Economics courses?....I did, I have. Though far too long ago, I'll admit. We'll just disagree over this, then.
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