Union rejects 14 conditions associated with give back

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Author	Comment
tyu12	give back	#161	[-]
(05/21/08 01:19 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	The hard ball tactics used by your union negotiators - and tactics that are used by the rank and file in coordination with them - to try and force the City to hire more firefighters (that is my opinion of the objective) or get other contract concessions is at the root of this stuff. It is business, plain and simple in my opinion. Union business. I say that with some affection - I was in the carpenter's and pipefitter's unions, my dad (as I said) was a union negotiator, one of my in-laws was a business agent for a millwright local. But, please, don't tell me it doesn't happen or about the tactics that are used - I've seen it first hand. what's the hourly rate for a union carpenter and pipe fitter and benefit package I'll bet it is a lot better that a city employee's also a question for Mike Hunt if you know why does a transfer from one account to another such as training to overtime have to be approved by the city council if the information given in an earlier post is correct.
Mike Hunt		#162	[-]
(05/21/08 06:20 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	tyu12 wrote: also a question for Mike Hunt if you know why does a transfer from one account to another such as training to overtime have to be approved by the city council if the information given in an earlier post is correct. I don't know. Some accounts are routinely transferable - I've seen the Chief move money around - while others are not. GFD - 5% of the budget, 100% of the problem....
Lucky One		#163	[-]
(05/21/08 07:38 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	The thing that kills me on this board is the Jeckly and Hyde mentality. Some of you are so anti OT but you don't want more firefighters to be hired either, because it's construed as a "union" tactic. The fire serviceis not a business where you have someone sitting in a cubicle and an excel spreadsheet. When things happen, it's a labor intensive thing. For example: Two cars collide. Inside those cars are some trapped people who require medical attention and hurst tools to fre them. you need an incident commander, a minimum of 2 medics to care for the patients trapped in the vehicle, a mnimum of 4 to 5 FF to run the tool and stand by with a hoseline just in case, you also need a crew to await a medflight crew if needed. That totals 8 to 10. For example: a building fire @ 2 AM. people hear the smoke detcetor and ignore it .. now they ar trapped. You need an incident commander, a minimum of 3 to get the first hoseline in place, a minimum of 3 to get the second hoseline in place, a minimum of 3 to get ground ladders up, a minimum of 1 to operate the ladder and 1 to 2 to operate the attack and supply pump, a minimum of 2 to comence search and rescue of the trapped occupants, plus a crew of 2 to 4 to stand by for relief purposes That totals 16 to 18 How is that a "union" tactic? Yes fire don't happen everyday but when they do (lorraine apartments) they are quick, dramatic and resource draining. But not just that, everyday there are multiple calls that go on. The GFD, if you read the records, not what the GDT prints does 14 runs a day. Most are medicals but anything can happen. Like Mike says, some of the people here are rock headed and just complain to complain.
Flip		#164	[-]
(10/14/31 04:11 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	Well, Flip, welcome to the world the rest of us live in. Do you think we all get regular pay raises and a beer at the end of the day from the boss? Do you know that Preventive Maintenance (PM) is the main job of most firemen in small towns across the nation? Because if, just say, you go a couple of shifts without more than a couple of medical calls - what did you do to earn your money? Sit around the station waiting for a call, to be sure, but what else? Rolled hoses, checked your SCBAs and respirators, etc. So pardon me if I am not deeply saddened by your efforts in simple plumbing, painting and PM (as a firefighter, you should know not to mess with wiring beyond replacing light switches, etc. - so I assume you weren't running wires or putting in boxes or meters). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First of all, my point was that firefighters are like everyone else. As far as plumbing ,electrical work, it goes far beyond simple maintenence. Members have installed water heaters, repaired furnances, run wires and installed light fixtures, maintained the central dispatch system, painting and much more. There will be a new kitchen installed to replace the old crummy one. Almost all the electrical, plumbing, flooring painting, venting etc. will be performed by firefighters at no cost to the city. BTW, see what a plumber or electrician charge for so called simple plumbing or wiring. Also, the firefighters performing this work are licensed. Thanks for showing everyone you have no clue what your talking about. Last Edited By: Flip 05/21/08 10:19 AM. Edited 1 times.
Flip		#165	[-]
(05/21/08 08:31 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	Second, you also win no friends when you say things like "If things are tough , get a part time job or take the exam." My friend, from what I do now, I guarantee you I could do your job - maybe I will be if we have to fire all of you and go with a volunteer department. But, I don't think it is in your best interest to be saying to citizens that they should get a part time job so you don't have to give up some perks. If you do want to work somewhere else and have to move your family, this is the quickest way to get it done --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wasn't telling all citizens to get a part time job or take the exam, just you. As far as doing this job, it seems that know it all, overconfident blowhards, don't do very well. You must not have a job if you think you would have the time to volunteer in a city that does over 5000 runs per year, not to mention the time to go to the academy and become EMT certified. Maybe you should move since you seem disatisfied with your current situation. The city unions did not cause our current fiscal mess, it was caused by mismanagement of past administrations for the last thirty years.
Insider2004		#166	[-]
(05/22/08 09:57 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	Letter to the editor: Firefighters do not betray citizens To the editor: This letter is in response to the editorial headlined "Firefighters' vote against OT deal betrays residents" (Gloucester Daily Times, May 14). Every single union member had agreed to put the $25,000 that is in the training budget toward the overtime account until it was presented to us with 14 additional items added to the proposed deal, and the city wouldn't take the money until these 14 items were agreed to. That has not yet been reported. The money - as far as I know - would not have hired one man for one day to open one station; it would have hired two men for three hours when and if the ambulance went to Beverly, or paid firefighters for contracted and state-mandated EMT and paramedic continuing education and refresher courses - as far as I know. The editorial read, "We'd like to see the chief and the union leadership go back to the rank and file and ask for reconsideration of this agreement." We say, ask the city to accept the $25,000 period. We, as firefighters, EMTs and paramedics, are not trained to balance a city budget. Our jobs are to put out house, car, boat, woods and other types of fires, along with performing various types of emergency medical responses such as cardiopulmonary resuscitation for heart attacks, drowning, overdoses, rescue people trapped in cars, house fires, confined spaces, and ice and water rescues. We search for lost children, elderly, and mentally disabled. We provide assistance for people with all kinds of illness, injury, abuse and trauma such as assault, depression, substance abuse, broken bones, child and elderly abuse or neglect, and childbirth. We assist the public when they get locked out of their homes or when they need an unwanted visitor,such as bats, squirrels, owls, etc., removed from their homes. We protect their homes and property from downed power lines, hazardous material spills, floods, and countless other dangerous situations. We shovel out hydrants that have been buried during the winter, or someone's walkway or stairs if we need to get them out and off to the hospital. We have to leave our homes and families at all hours of the night and in all kinds of adverse weather conditions to go and fight a house fire to protect the lives and property of the citizens of Gloucester. Our job consists of helping people that are rich, poor, good, bad, etc., 24 hours a day, seven days a week and 365 days a year, including Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter, New Year's, Fourth of July, or any other holiday (all of which only two firefighters are allowed to take vacation time during). Our job requires us to miss family birthdays, christenings, First Communions, confirmations, graduations, weddings and any other event that occurs when we are working, or called back to work when we are off duty. We must also miss school and or sporting events that our children or other family members participate in. We must accept the fact that - because of a lack of funding - we must perform our duties short-handed or without the proper equipment, such as when the Fishermen's Wharf fire occurred we ran out of breathing air for our tanks but kept fighting the fire in order to protect the city and its citizens. We must accept occupational injuries and illnesses because of the constant exposure to the things that cause them. I was diagnosed with occupational cancer in 2000, received treatment and returned to work one year later in 2001, because I love helping people, I love my job, and I love the city of Gloucester and all its citizens. Sorry, Mr. Editor, but you're wrong - firefighters do not betray citizens! > MICHAEL SMITH Thurston Point Road, Gloucester Gloucester firefighter
leftwingnut		#167	[-]
(05/22/08 12:28 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	Good for Michael Smith! Kudos! To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. -Theodore Roosevelt, The Kansas City Star, May 7, 1918
Y DEVELOP		#168	[-]
(05/22/08 01:55 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	Excellent editorial! Well written and simply put. It puts Richard Gaines reporting where it should be - in a fairly tale of hatred and lies.
gulls11		#169	[-]
(05/22/08 04:09 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	Very well done Mike I think most people realize by now that RG writes only to create controversy in an effort to sell a very poorly done product.
MMickkeYY		#170	[-]
(05/22/08 04:27 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	What is "occupational cancer"?
leftwingnut		#171	[-]
(05/22/08 04:31 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	Cancer caused by working conditions. If your job exposes you to carcinogens, you are part of a demographic that is going to have higher incidences of certain cancers. I would guess Mike has a cancer that is related to inhaling bad stuff... in other words, probably some kind of lung cancer. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. -Theodore Roosevelt, The Kansas City Star, May 7, 1918
lake st		#172	[-]
(05/22/08 05:41 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	tyu12 wrote: The hard ball tactics used by your union negotiators - and tactics that are used by the rank and file in coordination with them - to try and force the City to hire more firefighters (that is my opinion of the objective) or get other contract concessions is at the root of this stuff. It is business, plain and simple in my opinion. Union business. I say that with some affection - I was in the carpenter's and pipefitter's unions, my dad (as I said) was a union negotiator, one of my in-laws was a business agent for a millwright local. But, please, don't tell me it doesn't happen or about the tactics that are used - I've seen it first hand. what's the hourly rate for a union carpenter and pipe fitter and benefit package I'll bet it is a lot better that a city employee's also a question for Mike Hunt if you know why does a transfer from one account to another such as training to overtime have to be approved by the city council if the information given in an earlier post is correct. Who are the union negotiators that you speak of ? Are you insinuating the firefighters bus in pinky ring wearing thugs to negotiate their contracts? I was under the impression that the mayor and the firefighters negotiated with each other.
o Realist o		#173	[-]
(05/22/08 05:49 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	why does a transfer from one account to another such as training to overtime have to be approved by the city council Transfers do NOT have to be approved by the city council if they are from one Ordinary account to another Ordinary account (non-Personal items such as supplies, vehicle maintenance, gasoline etc.) - same holds true for Personal accounts, for example, Salary and Wages to OT. Conversely, if transfer is from Ordinary to Personal or vice versa, city council must approve. And, yes, it is called Personal rather than Personnel in the city budget. Last Edited By: o Realist o 05/22/08 05:54 PM. Edited 1 times.
Econ		#174	[-]
(05/22/08 07:23 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	Hey, here is one for you guys - I AM a certified on-scene incident commander - have been for 20 years! In fact, I may be teaching courses to firefighters in the near future. How does that grab ya! You apparently think you are coming across with information that supports your cause, but - just keep going 'cause you're proving my point. D'ya think there are people reading this that, oh, I don't know - work at an office and, though it is not in their job description, they are the system administrator for their office computer system? You know how much a computer consultant costs? Do you think there are guys out there - non-union of course - that have to maintain equipment on their jobs - saving the company the cost of a mechanic and helping to ensure that the company is profitable and they get to KEEP their jobs? As much as you say people on the outside looking in don't know what they are talking about, you are on the inside with blinders on. With this limited view, you can't see what is going on around you. Fine - you don't want to do the maintenance, don't do it. Get along with the kitchen you have or whatever. It is what the public does when they don't have the money to fix up their house right now...they have to put it off. Sometimes it never gets done, but that is reality. You can't impoverish yourself over the things you want at the expense of the things you need. We need fire services, we want you to have a fair wage at proper staffing levels. But your attitude (by this I mean ALL of the unions) of wanting to strip the town to the bare bones, again, comes off of very me-first. Do you know how many people in this town and this state DON'T make nearly as much as you do? If you don't want to do the job for the pay, then go use your license and get paid better as a plumber or electrician if you can - good for you. But don't think you can, collectively, attempt to bankrupt the City - even as an unintentional by-product - and not get some blow back from the citizens.
Econ		#175	[-]
(05/22/08 07:26 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	tyu12 wrote: The hard ball tactics used by your union negotiators - and tactics that are used by the rank and file in coordination with them - to try and force the City to hire more firefighters (that is my opinion of the objective) or get other contract concessions is at the root of this stuff. It is business, plain and simple in my opinion. Union business. I say that with some affection - I was in the carpenter's and pipefitter's unions, my dad (as I said) was a union negotiator, one of my in-laws was a business agent for a millwright local. But, please, don't tell me it doesn't happen or about the tactics that are used - I've seen it first hand. what's the hourly rate for a union carpenter and pipe fitter and benefit package I'll bet it is a lot better that a city employee's also a question for Mike Hunt if you know why does a transfer from one account to another such as training to overtime have to be approved by the city council if the information given in an earlier post is correct. Well, tyu, that was about 20 years ago and we made 10.64 an hour as a carpenter and 15.00 an hour as a journeyman plumber. Benefits were about the same that anybody else got except for some additional accidental death and dismemberment and strike insurance policies. Right now, the City employees make out a lot better because of the State pension program.
Econ		#176	[-]
(05/22/08 07:36 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	Lucky One wrote: The thing that kills me on this board is the Jeckly and Hyde mentality. Some of you are so anti OT but you don't want more firefighters to be hired either, because it's construed as a "union" tactic. The fire serviceis not a business where you have someone sitting in a cubicle and an excel spreadsheet. When things happen, it's a labor intensive thing. For example: Two cars collide. Inside those cars are some trapped people who require medical attention and hurst tools to fre them. you need an incident commander, a minimum of 2 medics to care for the patients trapped in the vehicle, a mnimum of 4 to 5 FF to run the tool and stand by with a hoseline just in case, you also need a crew to await a medflight crew if needed. That totals 8 to 10. For example: a building fire @ 2 AM. people hear the smoke detcetor and ignore it .. now they ar trapped. You need an incident commander, a minimum of 3 to get the first hoseline in place, a minimum of 3 to get the second hoseline in place, a minimum of 3 to get ground ladders up, a minimum of 1 to operate the ladder and 1 to 2 to operate the attack and supply pump, a minimum of 2 to comence search and rescue of the trapped occupants, plus a crew of 2 to 4 to stand by for relief purposes That totals 16 to 18 How is that a "union" tactic? Yes fire don't happen everyday but when they do (lorraine apartments) they are quick, dramatic and resource draining. But not just that, everyday there are multiple calls that go on. The GFD, if you read the records, not what the GDT prints does 14 runs a day. Most are medicals but anything can happen. Like Mike says, some of the people here are rock headed and just complain to complain. Yeah, Lucky, and that is what drains the coffers - anything can happen so we have to take along everybody we have! Why? So we can write down we did 14 calls today and 5000 this year! How about if we go back through those calls and take a look at what actually happened and how many people were actually involved - not stand by, not "oh, we might have to call for a med flight that will take 30 minutes to get here"? Did you ever hear of proportional response? Graduated Response? You are only minutes from any scene in the City, even at your worst response times. I know you've heard of these procedures because you use them on big fires - calling in more ambulances, fire departments, police, etc. as the situation escalates. But you don't try to apply it to the small stuff, and that is where you cost us all big bucks. See, they make these things called radios now and, what you can do is send a few people to the actual event to do a response surveillance - then if they need help, they call the other guys on the radio to come on out and help. This tilts the playing field from OVER responding on 5000 calls and spending more money than is necessary while still providing appropriate support, being safe and responding appropriately. Hey, when there was a horse and buggy in the fire house and low technology everbody grabbing a bucket and running was the wise course. The tactics you use now are wasteful.
Econ		#177	[-]
(05/22/08 07:38 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	Flip wrote: Well, Flip, welcome to the world the rest of us live in. Do you think we all get regular pay raises and a beer at the end of the day from the boss? Do you know that Preventive Maintenance (PM) is the main job of most firemen in small towns across the nation? Because if, just say, you go a couple of shifts without more than a couple of medical calls - what did you do to earn your money? Sit around the station waiting for a call, to be sure, but what else? Rolled hoses, checked your SCBAs and respirators, etc. So pardon me if I am not deeply saddened by your efforts in simple plumbing, painting and PM (as a firefighter, you should know not to mess with wiring beyond replacing light switches, etc. - so I assume you weren't running wires or putting in boxes or meters). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First of all, my point was that firefighters are like everyone else. As far as plumbing ,electrical work, it goes far beyond simple maintenence. Members have installed water heaters, repaired furnances, run wires and installed light fixtures, maintained the central dispatch system, painting and much more. There will be a new kitchen installed to replace the old crummy one. Almost all the electrical, plumbing, flooring painting, venting etc. will be performed by firefighters at no cost to the city. BTW, see what a plumber or electrician charge for so called simple plumbing or wiring. Also, the firefighters performing this work are licensed. Thanks for showing everyone you have no clue what your talking about. Well, then, I would suggest if they aren't happy and they are so skilled that they use their licenses to pursue a more lucrative job in the building trades. Oh, that's right, not much construction going on these days....hmmm, might have to keep that nice, safe, union, City job after all.
Econ		#178	[-]
(05/22/08 07:50 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	Flip wrote: Second, you also win no friends when you say things like "If things are tough , get a part time job or take the exam." My friend, from what I do now, I guarantee you I could do your job - maybe I will be if we have to fire all of you and go with a volunteer department. But, I don't think it is in your best interest to be saying to citizens that they should get a part time job so you don't have to give up some perks. If you do want to work somewhere else and have to move your family, this is the quickest way to get it done --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wasn't telling all citizens to get a part time job or take the exam, just you. As far as doing this job, it seems that know it all, overconfident blowhards, don't do very well. You must not have a job if you think you would have the time to volunteer in a city that does over 5000 runs per year, not to mention the time to go to the academy and become EMT certified. Maybe you should move since you seem disatisfied with your current situation. The city unions did not cause our current fiscal mess, it was caused by mismanagement of past administrations for the last thirty years. Flip, when you are talking to me you ARE talking to Citizens just like me - and thereby saying the same thing to all the people that share my opinion. So you are saying you are going to put your hands over your ears and go "nananananana" like a kid 'cause it was "Johnny's fault"? You have to deal with the situation as it is and we all have to work together to get out of this mess. We aren't asking you to work for free, we're asking you and the union to be more reasonable and not punk out and take a me-first, screw everyone else attitude. And Flip, I am old now, but I guarantee you I can and have done stuff as hazardous and more dangerous than you face on 99% of your calls. I am probably not in a position to carry someone out of a building, but I can operate a hose and operate the pump and take care of clearing an LZ for Medflight. Been there, done that.
Econ		#179	[-]
(05/22/08 07:51 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	lake st wrote: tyu12 wrote: The hard ball tactics used by your union negotiators - and tactics that are used by the rank and file in coordination with them - to try and force the City to hire more firefighters (that is my opinion of the objective) or get other contract concessions is at the root of this stuff. It is business, plain and simple in my opinion. Union business. I say that with some affection - I was in the carpenter's and pipefitter's unions, my dad (as I said) was a union negotiator, one of my in-laws was a business agent for a millwright local. But, please, don't tell me it doesn't happen or about the tactics that are used - I've seen it first hand. what's the hourly rate for a union carpenter and pipe fitter and benefit package I'll bet it is a lot better that a city employee's also a question for Mike Hunt if you know why does a transfer from one account to another such as training to overtime have to be approved by the city council if the information given in an earlier post is correct. Who are the union negotiators that you speak of ? Are you insinuating the firefighters bus in pinky ring wearing thugs to negotiate their contracts? I was under the impression that the mayor and the firefighters negotiated with each other. Wait until negotiations begin and you'll have your answer.
Flip		#180	[-]
(05/22/08 08:28 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Friend Request Blocking Visit My Community Ignore User's Posts	Well, then, I would suggest if they aren't happy and they are so skilled that they use their licenses to pursue a more lucrative job in the building trades. Oh, that's right, not much construction going on these days....hmmm, might have to keep that nice, safe, union, City job after all ------------------------------------------------ No one said they weren't happy with there jobs , you made the statement that they only do simple maintenance and I demonstrated that you don't know what your'e talking about. Thay have no problem doing this extra work, all they ask for is the materials. I believe the majority of citizens DON'T think the way you do. The department is underfunded and undermanned according to the city sponsered audit in 1992 and NFPA standards. No one is asking for raises , just enough funding to keep the stations open most of the time and if it isn't there , then they will do the best they can with what they have. Like I stated earlier, the Fire Dept. is not responsible for the city woes, it's been poor management over a long period of time. You obviously have a ax to grind with unions and the GFD in particular.

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Union rejects 14 conditions associated with give back

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